The Atonement: Cosmic Child Abuse? With Mike Winger (Part 1) — The Alisa Childers Podcast #53
Today's podcast centers around a book by Brian Zhand called, "Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God," in which Zhand suggests that substitutionary atonement makes God into a divine child abuser. Mike Winger joins me to talk about the book, different atonement theories, and why substitutionary atonement is not only biblical, but beautiful.
7/19/2019 04:54:21 pm
It seems to me that there may be a bit of misinformation right from the start. Mike begins by stating that the Penal Substitutionary theory was the historical model throughout church history. This is false. The early church fathers predominantly spoke of the cross either as a “Ransom” Jesus provided to the powers that held humanity in bondage and captivity through sin in order to redeem humanity from that bondage, or as Christ’s victory over the power of death itself (Christus Victor).
7/19/2019 08:21:05 pm
Hi Jared, thanks for your comment. I believe all of your concerns were addressed in the podcast. Like Mike said, you can find all kinds of articles highlighting the church father's views regarding substitution. Here's one of many: https://thinktheology.co.uk/blog/article/substitution_in_the_church_fathers
7/21/2019 04:13:28 am
I actually agree with Jared. I checked out the website you mentioned in response. "In our stead / place" could just as well be understood as "for our sake". Further such statements / phrases don't take away from the Ransom theory of atonement. To claim that such terminology was teaching 'penal substitution' is to be anachronistic. I'm a huge fan of Mike Winger and I hope his ministry continues to be blessed. However, trying to justify penal substitution by foisting it backwards onto the Church Fathers seems a little unfair and unnecessary. While I personally don't agree with penal substitution, I also believe that there are certain truths that continue to be progressively revealed even in our days because our focus and prerogatives and priorities face a different set of challenges and heresies than the ones the Church Fathers faced. May God bless Mike Winger and his work
4/26/2020 02:20:11 pm
Alisa, thanks for the 2-part on PSA. As you know, a ton of resistance by Progressive Christian Theologians (which are really none of the 3 sub terms if you dig deep) and I see an irony I wanted to ask you about:
7/23/2019 12:27:31 pm
Hey Jared, there are a number of problems with your comment.
7/22/2019 12:45:15 pm
"The NT writers think of Christ’s death as both expiatory and propitiatory. With regard to the expiation of sin, the author of Hebrews hammers home the point that in contrast to the OT sacrifices, “which can never take away sins” (10.11), Christ, “having been offered once to bear the sins of many” (9.28), “remove[d] sin by the sacrifice of himself” (9.26), so that “we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (10.10). John presents Christ as a Passover lamb whose death, in contrast to the original Passover sacrifice, is expiatory: “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” (Jn 1.29). Paul uses technical Levitical terminology to refer to Christ as “a sin offering” (peri hamartias) (Rom 8.3; cf. Heb. 10.6, 8). Those who have believed in Christ “have been justified by his blood” (Rom 5.9). Christ’s righteous act of obedience “leads to acquittal and life for all men. For … by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous” (5.18–19)."
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