The New Apostolic Reformation: Movement or Myth? With Dr. Doug Geivett, Holly Pivec, and Dr. Michael Brown — The Alisa Childers Podcast #19
What is the New Apostolic Reformation? Is it a growing movement that is influencing and impacting the body of Christ....or simply a myth? Dr. Michael Brown, Dr. Doug Geivett, and Holly Pivec discuss and debate the relevant issues on today's podcast.
Internet sources used in the discussion:
Danny Silk "The Blessing in our Fathers"
Kris Vallotton: "Becoming an Apostolic People."
Todd Bentley's Apostolic and Prophetic Commissioning
Brian Simmons on receiving "downloads" and a new chapter of the Bible, John 22
Holly's article on Simmons revealing a new chapter of the Bible
Books referenced by Holly:
Apostles, Prophets and the Coming Moves of God: God's End-Time Plans for His Church and Planet Earth, by Bill Hamon
When Heaven Invades Earth, By Bill Johnson
Other books mentioned:
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4/19/2018 12:29:20 pm
I have a question for you Alisa. I grew up in a church that believed that the Spiritual Gifts of healing, speaking in tongues, decernment, and other Gifts were done away with the last apostle. My church was the Church of Christ and also the Bapist have a similar belief. Do you share this belief and if not how do you answer this question.
4/19/2018 01:21:46 pm
Hi James, thanks for your question. I do not share the belief that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased, however, I am deeply concerned about how influential NAR teachings and practices have become, particularly within the charismatic church.
4/19/2018 01:01:51 pm
I’m so thankful for this podcast and this continuing conversation. After listening, I have some thoughts:
4/19/2018 02:54:41 pm
Teasi... your last sentence. Is that cut off? Either way, I'm not understanding the last part of that last paragraph. Who's playing with spirit tuning forks?
4/19/2018 03:26:13 pm
Sorry...here's the rest of my comment from above:
4/22/2018 10:28:38 am
Hi Teasi - thank you for your thoughtful comment. I can tell you've given this a lot of thought and research. Just a few quick comments here:
4/19/2018 08:50:06 pm
Hi Alisa, thank you for doing this podcast! I support what Holly and Doug articulated. In fact, considering all of the material they had to choose from, I thought they were both conservative in their criticism. Dr. Brown on the other hand used words such as "misunderstood", "no substance" , "nonsense", "bogus" to name but a few adjectives about their criticism of the nefarious NAR movement. New Age theology within many of their books is rampant and to infer that there is no substance to the reality of NAR is difficult to comprehend. The term "smoke and mirrors" comes to mind in Dr. Brown's defence of the authoritative Office of Apostle with respect to titles used and actual practise. The issue is the doctrine of the NAR movement because it is in essence a different Gospel that given to us in the New Testament and of course exactly what the Apostle Paul warned us about. These "new" revelations and creeds that are a hallmark of the NAR Apostles and Prophets focuses on replacing what has been given to us in the NT and abandoning Biblical understanding to focus on "dreams" and "visions" that reek of New Age mysticism. Dr. Brown's emphasis on the harm being caused by unfounded labelling was also difficult to swallow. When a "different" Gospel is being authoritatively fed to the unwary sheep we have a responsibility to identify the wolf. I have authored a number of posts on my Christian Apologetics blog about the NAR movement (Reasoned Cases for Christ - bcooper.wordpress.com) including a book review of Graham Cooke's Prophetic Wisdom and for the last two years alone, these NAR related posts have literally received many thousands of views, indicating that many are looking for documented discernment. So, keep up the great work! Grace and blessings!
4/19/2018 09:40:39 pm
Based on this interview here are my thoughts. Michael Brown was not a good listener but was full of "hearsay" , "insider" knowledge, which seems to be typical of a defensive posture. Holly Pivec gave facts in research, with quotes and has offered the list of references fromvwhich their research was founded. Mr. Brown always used "attack" words or "demeaning" terms such as , i was shocked, this nonscense, this divisive. He used terms such as "I am on the inside" , I know them, that is not what they " meant". ( presumes to know the thoughts of another) "this is bogus".
4/20/2018 04:42:39 am
Throughout the entire interview, Brown's main response seemed to be "you're not.being nice."
4/20/2018 07:30:05 am
Pastor Chris Rosebrough has rightly labeled Michael Brown as the "Apostle of Obfuscation". Brown cannot openly admit that the "so-called" NAR has serious issues because he is part and parcel of it going at least as far back as the Brownsville Revival. Since he cannot expose NAR heresy without implicating himself for his own role as an enabler for the movement, the best he can do is to continue throwing enough doubt at the issue to keep the more gullible members of his audience carrying on with business as usual.
4/20/2018 11:02:51 pm
Amen to all that! It’s got to be orthodox Charismatics who call out Brown and the NAR. They will never listen to cessationists like myself. Unfortunately, there doesn’t seem to be a ton willing to step up right now.
4/23/2018 10:12:48 am
"Pastor Chris Rosebrough has rightly labeled Michael Brown as the "Apostle of Obfuscation"."
4/20/2018 07:25:17 pm
I think Brown is far more dangerous than most realize.
4/21/2018 08:47:49 pm
Hey Alisa - I noticed that you were very careful to say that neither Holly nor Doug were calling Dr. Brown a liar. However, surely you do see that a number of comments on both your and Holly's website are outright falsehood about him or even maligning his name? Here's a sample:
4/21/2018 09:18:06 pm
Being misleading and glossing over the truth and propping up false teachers is a form of lying. Brown is doing this. Calling someone out for this is good fruit and so pointing to the good fruit that is resulting from Holly and Doug and then just assuming it is bad without proof that it is bad and accusing us of bad fruit based on that assumption is to make false accusations and we would appreciate it if you didn’t make such false accusations.
4/21/2018 09:50:58 pm
"Being misleading and glossing over the truth and propping up false teachers is a form of lying. Brown is doing this."
4/21/2018 11:03:35 pm
Delkin: Have you taken the time to check out what documented doctrine the NAR propagates? Have you researched the documented elaborate network that NAR Apostles and Prophets are associated with? Is the NAR Gospel the same Gospel that was delivered to the Church in the NT? Perhaps you might want to rap the Apostle Paul on the knuckles for saying in Galatians 1:8-9 NIV "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!" or perhaps you'd like to chastise Jesus for dressing down the Pharisees. The NAR movement is not a myth and to infer that it is, regardless of who you are, is to be grossly misinformed. Jesus warned us that their would be wolves in the flock, I don't recall Jesus telling us to let them finish eating the sheep, so as not to offend them, before we gently ask them what their objective is. Before you criticize the tone of Holly or Doug or some of the responders, you would do well to become familiar with the subject matter and thus conversant with the consequential urgency of what was being discussed.
4/22/2018 11:17:08 am
Hey Bruce - please see my responses below:
4/21/2018 11:15:36 pm
Fascinating interview. I am so grateful that you were able to get Holly Pivec, R. Douglas Geivett, and Michael Brown together to debate! I have read both of Pivec and Geivett's books and found the books to be well-researched and thoughtful.
4/22/2018 09:34:57 am
Hi Chris - I am very sorry to hear about the destruction seen at your church. I've experienced church splits and theological differences, so I can definitely relate to the pain.
4/21/2018 11:34:55 pm
Delkin, you are attempting to read into Jesus a postmodern philosophy that simply doesn’t exist. You are quoting from Luke 6, but in an extremely similar text Jesus says that we will recognize, not think or believe or tentatively maintain, but recognize, a false prophet by his fruit (Matt 7:15-23). That is certainty.
4/22/2018 01:41:31 pm
"And biblically fruit is never ever presented as simply being about being nice."
4/22/2018 12:59:48 am
Hey Bruce - it seems that I can't reply directly to your comment so I'll reply by making a new thread here. Please see my responses below:
4/22/2018 02:15:49 pm
Delkin, it’s Sunday and do I don’t want to spend too much time responding to you, but I will have plenty more to say later. For now I will say that the doctrine that there are full blown apostles today is not a secondary issue, but cuts right to the heart of biblical authority.
4/22/2018 04:59:23 pm
"Second, I have been studying and teaching church history for almost 20 years now and I can say without reservation that your treatment of the notion that the doctrine that there are no apostles in the church Today was a Reformation invention is completely inaccurate."
4/22/2018 07:59:49 pm
Delkin, you commit so many errors of fact, logic, exegesis, method, and presentation, that they are too many for me to continue to try to address them all here through comments. I will be writing a full response to you on my website that will post by Wed night. My website is linked to all of my comments here. You and anybody else who is interested is welcome to respond as often as you would like.
4/23/2018 08:26:11 am
"Delkin, you commit so many errors of fact, logic, exegesis, method, and presentation, that they are too many for me to continue to try to address them all here through comments"
4/22/2018 02:24:27 pm
This debate exemplifies the major problem I see with Christianity. Not only is its message up for interpretation, there appears to be no captain at the helm to offer direction. The Holy Spirit is leading Christians in literally hundreds of different directions. How would someone truly seeking answers determine truth based on this?
4/22/2018 06:09:09 pm
Hi Janet, this is a very good question and I thank you for asking it. I think Doug answered this beautifully in his closing statement. We as Christians DO have an authoritative source for truth...the Bible. When people try to add to it, change it, deny parts of it, or minimize it, confusion abounds.
Janet, the core message of Christianity is not up for interpretation. For Christians, our standard is the Bible. There are core doctrines that all Christians who use the Bible as their standard agree upon, regardless of which denomination or Christian group they're part of. These core doctrines include the Trinity, the deity of Jesus, the bodily resurrection, the atoning work of Christ on the cross, and salvation by grace through faith. http://www.apologeticsindex.org/158-essential-doctrines-of-the-christian-faith
4/22/2018 08:12:36 pm
Hey Janet, I fully understand that it can seem this way sometimes, Satan is very real and he is the author of confusion and he expends more energy in this area, namely creating real confusion in the church and even more so the appearance of chaos in the church, than in any other area. But not all is as it seems. I fully respond to this objection in my A False Kind of Christianity: A Conservative Evangelical Refutation of Progressive Christianity; chapter six in the section titled The Disunity of the Church Disproves Christianity if you are interested. The book can be bought for cheap on Kindle.
4/23/2018 10:12:47 am
Delkin, everything you said to me in your last comment is mere assertion. You self-confidently proclaim your views and when I say I will be disproving them in a thorough article you bow out. This is just plain cowardice and reflects the equivocation that is the hallmark of those who hold to heretical positions and yes the NAR is heretical. There may be a massive difference of degree between NAR and Mormonism, but there isn’t a difference in kind, both deny essential elements of God’s word. I know you will focus on the fact that I said you are behaving in a cowardly fashion as another example of unloving name calling, this proving your point. But I’m not a nasty name caller. I’m not saying you are a coward in an overarching sense. We all engage in cowardice at various points and I’m simply saying you are doing so here. And I’m not calling Brown a liar in an overarching sense either. We all engage in implicit deceit and we are all self-deceived at times. And I’m simply saying that Brown engages in this behavior in clear ways at times. The 59 mark of the interview is a clear example of this. Doug has gently caught him in a major contradiction and Brown proceeds to dance around it. And I’m not the only one to accuse him of this. A leader of the stature of Phil Johnson did the same in regard to Brown defending word of faith and counterfeit revival heretics and Brown’s written response was shameful, absolutely riddled with obfuscation and equivocation.
4/23/2018 03:53:20 pm
Hey Dan - I won't be baited and goaded into a debate with you. If you actually are interested in understanding what "we" believe, I would encourage you to read the works provided above.
4/23/2018 04:36:28 pm
Hey Alisa - earlier in the thread, you said:
4/23/2018 07:03:26 pm
Sure Delkin, I’m happy to share my thoughts. First, I’m surprised you’ve never met another pentecostal/charismatic concerned about NAR. I know of many, including the entire denomination of Assemblies of God, who have denounced NAR teachings such as governing Apostles and Prophets, Dominionism, Impartation, and identifying territorial demonic spirits in strategic spiritual warfare.
4/23/2018 05:40:42 pm
4/23/2018 07:43:30 pm
I also want to add that Dr. Geivett is a respected professor and scholar, and Holly is a careful researcher. Their book is endorsed by three top New Testament scholars—Craig Keener (continuationist), Dan Wallace, and Craig Evans, along with other esteemed scholars such as Paul Copan (continuationist). They are anything but conspiracy theorists.
4/23/2018 11:36:19 pm
In 1993, my family was among the core group of folks planting a new church in a growing southern community. The church began its meetings in my parents’ home, and my Dad became the music minister. Over the course of 6 years, the church grew into an influential force within our city’s Christian community.
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